We've seen trainers, we've read Ceasar's Way, we're still stumped. What is your opinion?
Written by on Sunday, August 31, 2008 – 11:27 pm -
My parents and I got our weimaraner from a rescue. We believe he might have been abused.
We got him when our other weim, Asti, was alive, because we felt she needed a friend. She was small for the breed, extremely intelligent, and very mellow. Willie, our newer one, respected her greatly. Though he is a male, and much bigger than her, he always considered her the alpha.
However, he was not as friendly with us. The day we got him, he started growling in the back of the car. He wouldn't stop. If we even tried to touch him, he'd growl. We were afraid he was vicious! We stuck it out, though, hoping that he'd warm up to us. He did, and he is actually a very sweet dog. But he still growls! It's been about three years, and we've learned that he's not always mad when he growls. He will growl even when you pet him, but we've learned that he likes it. Our other weim would sometimes groan when we pet her, but it could not be mistaken for a growl. Willie growls, constantly.
Although usually he is sweet, any sort of challenge will get him fired up. If you so much as say the word "no", even if it's not directed at him, he gets mad. If you try to lock him in a room during dinner, he quickly turns vicious. He has bitten me and my step-dad.
However, he is very gentle with my 11-month old sister. He never gets mad at her, even when she uses him to pull herself up.
He is not so kind to our standard poodle puppy, though.
It's just a strange case. He is a nice dog, we love him, and he loves us, but he has an aggression problem. And the growling even when he's not mad is very unsettling to strangers.
What could have caused this, and is he "curable"?
Trainers have not been able to cure him, but they also have not pronounced him dangerous. And we've seen Ceasar tackle worse cases than this one.
Is our only hope to try to recruit him?? Unfortunately, he does not go to most states, and we live in Washington.
I adopted a 4 yr old border colliedogsome years ago. He was so bad at the time he had been put on 'death row'. He too had a problem with some words – bad, naughty, etc, and we think he associated these with being abused. I decided to change his words – we now use 'rude' instead and he knows he wont be hurt but we do totally withdraw attention from him – which is his worst punishment. We have also recognised that he doesn't like to be approached to be petted but will go to people if he wants to, so we respect that. He does wear a muzzle if I think other people put him at risk of biting, but this doesn't happen often now. I also found I had to make a real effort to become the 'alpha' in his life – so what I say goes, and I do use my voice range too. Shout if I want to shock into immediate reaction, growl to show displeasure and use a sharp tone for commands. Obviously there are softer 'reward' tones too. He is now a happier dog who knows what is expected from him and has achieved his Kennel Club Bronze Companion Award! Good luck with your dog – they are worth the effort aren't they…
regards Teresa
Posted in weimaraner rescue | 9 Comments »
By pixy_stix on Mar 6, 2008 | Reply
Have you tried an animal behaviorist? They're a little different from a trainer in that they will help you understand why the dog is doing what its doing, and then help you figure out a way to work with the problem.
EDIT: Cesar Milan is not all he's cracked up to be: http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
His theories are about 10 years behind current thinking. Not only that, but his techniques are extremely dangerous for people who do not know how to use them properly.
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By Nekai on Mar 6, 2008 | Reply
It's not so much as the growl that should be your warning if something should go wrong, it's the rest of Willie's body language.
Watch her ears, her itty bitty tail and her eyes, mostly, and you'll learn the difference between her 'talking' and her real warning of a growl.
if she is otherwise sweet and no seen prediction of a bite, then you should be ok. I'd just watch her around people. Too many people take this the wrong way and react in a way that they shouldn't.
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By Stephanie C on Mar 6, 2008 | Reply
This sounds like a dominance issue, not necessary a vicious dog. Stand your ground, but be patient. It sounds like he has a loving home, he'll come around.
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By tom l on Mar 6, 2008 | Reply
Very poor breeding and/or lack of socialization when young. Really sounds like a timid pup that stayed with it's litter mates far to long without any interaction with people.
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breeder trainer exhibitor
By Gerald on Mar 6, 2008 | Reply
Any dog who is unhappy with the owners and bites them is a viciious dog. I know you do not like to hear that but the truth is the only way. When the teritorial dog bites the baby in the face and leaves nasty scaring. Or if some one comes to the house and he bites them and you are suied for $400-500 maybe you will take notice. He does not belong with people and should be taken to the shelter or vet for puppy heaven…
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By MeanJean on Mar 6, 2008 | Reply
It is really not possible to diagnose these things over the internet, so the responsible advice I want to give you is to find a good behaviorist who can see your Weim and make a judgement.
Having said that, thanks to "Cesar," all kinds of behavioral problems seem to get chalked up to "dominance" issues, even when that has nothing to do with it.
I think there is a possibility that the real problem is "fear aggression" which is totally not the same thing as "dominance aggression." Fear aggression is common in scared dgos, and that might be what you are seeing here. The appearance might be the same unless you know the subtle signs to look for, which is whay I say to get a good behaviorist. The kicker is if you mistake one type of aggression for the other and use the wrong methods, you'll make things far worse than they were. A fear-aggressive dog needs positive reinforcement, a dominant-aggressive dog needs corrections. That is oversimplified, but gives you an idea of the need to have a reliable expert see it first hand.
Good luck.
References :
http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_Fear_Aggression.html
http://www.k9aggression.com/Aggression/aggression_types.html
http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_Fear_Aggression.html
By Teresa C on Mar 7, 2008 | Reply
I adopted a 4 yr old border colliedogsome years ago. He was so bad at the time he had been put on 'death row'. He too had a problem with some words – bad, naughty, etc, and we think he associated these with being abused. I decided to change his words – we now use 'rude' instead and he knows he wont be hurt but we do totally withdraw attention from him – which is his worst punishment. We have also recognised that he doesn't like to be approached to be petted but will go to people if he wants to, so we respect that. He does wear a muzzle if I think other people put him at risk of biting, but this doesn't happen often now. I also found I had to make a real effort to become the 'alpha' in his life – so what I say goes, and I do use my voice range too. Shout if I want to shock into immediate reaction, growl to show displeasure and use a sharp tone for commands. Obviously there are softer 'reward' tones too. He is now a happier dog who knows what is expected from him and has achieved his Kennel Club Bronze Companion Award! Good luck with your dog – they are worth the effort aren't they…
regards Teresa
References :
By Susan L Tripp on Mar 7, 2008 | Reply
I agree with Cesar that most dogs do not get daily exercise resulting in pent up energy and frustration. I do like his term, "calm, assertive." However, his methods are somewhat of a "one size fits all" based on his personal "dog handling" experiences. Dogs that may respond well to him may not respond the same way to an inconsistent pet owner who is just learning about pet behavior.
Cesar still works more with actual training which is command-response instead of having a clear understanding of the importance of a dog's emotional response in helping the dog become less fearful and aggressive by learning new, more acceptable coping behaviors. He tends to use "flooding" more than counter-conditioning or desensitization which are evidence-based, humane methods of behavior modification
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Go to http://www.animalbehavior.net/visitors/dogsabn.htm to read concerns from animal behavior professionals,
By huntjumper66 on Mar 8, 2008 | Reply
HI there,
Sorry to hear your having so much trouble with dog…
To start with Cesar has his way with dogs BUT he has made an assessment using his YEARS of experience with handling MANY dogs…Please don't assess your dogs behavior yourself – better to seek a professional …look for a trainer with aggression experience (possibly someone who has trained police k9 and understands what can trigger aggression) and also look into a behaviorist (a vet with behavior specialty) you may also have your vet check his thyroid as a LOW THYROID or (Hypo-thyroid) can have aggression as a side effect along with nervousness .Medication along with behavior modification may also help …
Like others on here have said it is hard to assess a dog on the internet but from what you have said it sounds more like fear based aggression not a dominate issue — please don't try pinning the dog like Cesar does as this has been known to make aggression worse and if it is fear based you definitely will make it worse!!
I would also be careful allowing the 11month old with him — just because he isn't showing aggression with her doesn't mean he won't and when he /if he does it won't be pretty !!!!
And if you like watching dog training shows try watching "It's Me Or The Dog" with Victoria Stillwell on Animal Planet Fri nights — she is soo cool!!!!! and uses more positive training and has worked with aggressive behaviors on her show….Check http://www.animalplanet.com for times and listings in your area…
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